Naruto Uzumaki - Page 2


 Topic: Naruto Uzumaki
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  Posted on July 18, 2017 21:18
thicks111
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#16
Saitama wrote:
matthewllerena wrote:
[...]
interpretation of the character.
thicks111 wrote:
My Advice
If I were you, I would slightly strengthen the base damage of Rasengan, take away its random, and make Barrage stronger, and make it use a specific chakra.

Same concept with Diversion but higher base defense.

THEN, Shadow Clones would empower these skills by double damage; with a cooldown higher than the duration of its skill. But also grant Rasengan and Barrage an extra random in cost.
However, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.
thicks111 wrote:
Even if this decreases by 15 each times its used, wouldn't this effect be renewable for no cost since 'Shadow Clones' have 1 cooldown?
It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

That's an even greater problem.

Since there's only 1 cooldown, within 2 prep times, even if Naruto uses one of his charges

He can deal 100+ to anyone, killing them for 2 chakra.

And if you go further, it doesn't matter what defense you have in the game.

If you want to avoid having similar skills to the 'carbon copy' in-game, then you might want to rework or change your skills.

My point is, Naruto has the ability to deal a huge amount of damage with very little cost. And a team with this Naruto in it would be solely centered around keeping him alive to make that kind of impact.

Final thing, 1 turn invulnerability skill is not always a bad thing. I'm not implying you said that, but sometimes the mechanic of making a character become invulnerable for 1 turn is useful and necessary for balancing.
  Posted on July 18, 2017 21:23
matthewllerena
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Posts: 112
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#17
Saitama wrote:
matthewllerena wrote:
[...]
There's two things that bother me with your overall assessment.

One: There's only two skills in mind being considered here for you. Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Rasengan will either deal too little damage or too much damage and as a result, the whole character is terrible. But you don't seem to give any consideration to the other two skills whatsoever. Uzumaki Barrage has the potential to deal a bare minimum total of 30 damage at each use. How? If you use it when you have either one charge or no charges, you will deal 5/10 damage on the first turn. Then you use Shadow Clones and set it up in the skill queue in such a way that it activates before Uzumaki Barrage so the improvements are applied to the skill. (Since the skill is action) That will improve it to 25 damage. So he will deal 5+25 or 10+25. If the charges are higher, he will end up dealing even more. The same situation is there with the Diversion skill where he can reduce similar amounts of damage as he would deal damage with Uzumaki Barrage, then getting a free preparation after he blocked off most of the damage he would take for one turn. And then he would mostly have some safe stacks of preparations that way. Coupled with a counter or some other form of defense from another one of his teammates, and he could be goldenly set up through that skill. I know you said that the Barrage is still strong, but you didn't exactly explain how it can be reliable and I am making sure you understand that, and you've pretty much discarded the fourth skill.

Two: Getting as many charges as you can into the character is the overall goal of the character. Him getting as many as possible for him to deal as much damage as possible is the rewarding part of the character. In other words, you want to use him in a way that you deal as much damage and then execute your targets with Rasengan, once you have enough. The reason he has charges removed so easily is that there is some way that he might fail in dealing an overly reliable amount of damage. As an example, I will use a character from WoN named Saigai. The way he does an overwhelming amount of damage is by setting up charges on enemies that do nothing. Then, upon using his key skill, he deals 15 affliction damage for 2 turns per charge. Your capability to set up the charges on the enemy characters is what makes you use that character effectively, and your capability to set up the charges on Naruto is what determines whether or not you are using him effectively. In Naruto's situation, the only real question is whether or not he is capable of setting up his damage to be rewarding at some point, not whether or not it is situationally high or situationally low. It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be. There are types of characters that you can end up dealing very little or very high damage based on how you use them, and Naruto is one of those characters. Now I need to know whether you have an issue with the overall design of Naruto specifically, or designs such as Saigai's.

Based on what you say, I could do some changes to him once I fully grasp your interpretation of the character.
thicks111 wrote:
My Advice
If I were you, I would slightly strengthen the base damage of Rasengan, take away its random, and make Barrage stronger, and make it use a specific chakra.

Same concept with Diversion but higher base defense.

THEN, Shadow Clones would empower these skills by double damage; with a cooldown higher than the duration of its skill. But also grant Rasengan and Barrage an extra random in cost.
However, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.
thicks111 wrote:
Even if this decreases by 15 each times its used, wouldn't this effect be renewable for no cost since 'Shadow Clones' have 1 cooldown?
It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

For Sagai's skill, what is the cost for it and cooldown? It seems like a strong skill, also, per charge means it can deal the 15 for 2 turns stacks or per charge the turns increase? If it means stack, then i would say it COULD be too strong, but i have no idea how WoN is balanced normally anyway. After all, base characters in WoN could just be generally stronger than in N-A.

For your first point, i focused on the more unbalanced aspects, that's why i zoned in on Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Sure, Uzumaki Barrage can be op as well, but those were the two most pressing issues. I disregarded the 4th skill because it's so weak (but yes, it makes sense why you had to make it so weak).

For your second point, i understand his strategy, but sometimes it DOESN'T matter if his downsides are x if his benefits are WAY stronger.

I'm not sure you understand, this Naruto gains TOO MANY CHARGES. Seriously, think about it. THINK how insanely POWERFUL this character can be to fight against UNLESS you have stunners or a really good team that roughly can negate chars like this Naruto. Unless you had an aoe team of some sort, you'd really be upsetting the balance with this character (and that's an annoying thing to do: 'unless you have this specific type of TEAM orientation, you can't neutralize him', and that's not even talking about how his teammates fit in).

"It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be"

The only way to use this character is to continually gain charges, he's too damn strong in some scenarios. No enemy should adapt this much. He's also terrible in other situations. Think about it mate. IF he vs a team of neutralizing chars (like itachi, kakashi s, kimimaro, lee (S), kushina), he's not going to do ANYTHING. That's ALSO bad, because by chance, he went against teams that can completely destroy him. Now, you could have teammates who continually try to use helpful counters on him, but...imo that's a problem. No character in N-A is or should be strong enough (with little drawback) to merit other chars completely protecting him. It's a GOOD thing that there are no chars like that. little drawback because no cost skill gaining so much damn charges, the fact that he doesn't have defense is both good and terrible. I know it doesn't sound i'm making much sense here, but it's all about the CHARGES, gaining 4 with only a 1 COOLDOWN.

Of course there are types of characters that deal high damage, but it shouldn't/doesn't take so much to lower their damage.
  Posted on July 19, 2017 05:24
Saitama
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Posts: 51
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December 24, 2013
#18
thicks111 wrote:
Saitama wrote:
matthewllerena wrote:
[...]
interpretation of the character.
thicks111 wrote:
My Advice
If I were you, I would slightly strengthen the base damage of Rasengan, take away its random, and make Barrage stronger, and make it use a specific chakra.

Same concept with Diversion but higher base defense.

THEN, Shadow Clones would empower these skills by double damage; with a cooldown higher than the duration of its skill. But also grant Rasengan and Barrage an extra random in cost.
However, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.
thicks111 wrote:
Even if this decreases by 15 each times its used, wouldn't this effect be renewable for no cost since 'Shadow Clones' have 1 cooldown?
It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

That's an even greater problem.

Since there's only 1 cooldown, within 2 prep times, even if Naruto uses one of his charges

He can deal 100+ to anyone, killing them for 2 chakra.

And if you go further, it doesn't matter what defense you have in the game.

If you want to avoid having similar skills to the 'carbon copy' in-game, then you might want to rework or change your skills.

My point is, Naruto has the ability to deal a huge amount of damage with very little cost. And a team with this Naruto in it would be solely centered around keeping him alive to make that kind of impact.

Final thing, 1 turn invulnerability skill is not always a bad thing. I'm not implying you said that, but sometimes the mechanic of making a character become invulnerable for 1 turn is useful and necessary for balancing.
This character going invulnerable for 1 turn and having no defense for 4 turns would be a much worse defensive option than what he already has.

Because this character's damage is shut down easily if you just attack him. Any team of characters is capable of using at least 2 offensive skills per turn on a single character or some form of defense or crowd control. He would have no chance to maintain the high amount of stacks he could get to in an ideal situation. Without support, he can quite ineffective.

However, I don't have to rework the character fully because you can't imagine any changes while still maintaining the concept without this character becoming a carbon copy of the in-game one. There are plenty of changes you can do to a character without going closer to the in-game version.
matthewllerena wrote:
Saitama wrote:
matthewllerena wrote:
[...]
There's two things that bother me with your overall assessment.

One: There's only two skills in mind being considered here for you. Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Rasengan will either deal too little damage or too much damage and as a result, the whole character is terrible. But you don't seem to give any consideration to the other two skills whatsoever. Uzumaki Barrage has the potential to deal a bare minimum total of 30 damage at each use. How? If you use it when you have either one charge or no charges, you will deal 5/10 damage on the first turn. Then you use Shadow Clones and set it up in the skill queue in such a way that it activates before Uzumaki Barrage so the improvements are applied to the skill. (Since the skill is action) That will improve it to 25 damage. So he will deal 5+25 or 10+25. If the charges are higher, he will end up dealing even more. The same situation is there with the Diversion skill where he can reduce similar amounts of damage as he would deal damage with Uzumaki Barrage, then getting a free preparation after he blocked off most of the damage he would take for one turn. And then he would mostly have some safe stacks of preparations that way. Coupled with a counter or some other form of defense from another one of his teammates, and he could be goldenly set up through that skill. I know you said that the Barrage is still strong, but you didn't exactly explain how it can be reliable and I am making sure you understand that, and you've pretty much discarded the fourth skill.

Two: Getting as many charges as you can into the character is the overall goal of the character. Him getting as many as possible for him to deal as much damage as possible is the rewarding part of the character. In other words, you want to use him in a way that you deal as much damage and then execute your targets with Rasengan, once you have enough. The reason he has charges removed so easily is that there is some way that he might fail in dealing an overly reliable amount of damage. As an example, I will use a character from WoN named Saigai. The way he does an overwhelming amount of damage is by setting up charges on enemies that do nothing. Then, upon using his key skill, he deals 15 affliction damage for 2 turns per charge. Your capability to set up the charges on the enemy characters is what makes you use that character effectively, and your capability to set up the charges on Naruto is what determines whether or not you are using him effectively. In Naruto's situation, the only real question is whether or not he is capable of setting up his damage to be rewarding at some point, not whether or not it is situationally high or situationally low. It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be. There are types of characters that you can end up dealing very little or very high damage based on how you use them, and Naruto is one of those characters. Now I need to know whether you have an issue with the overall design of Naruto specifically, or designs such as Saigai's.

Based on what you say, I could do some changes to him once I fully grasp your interpretation of the character.
thicks111 wrote:
My Advice
If I were you, I would slightly strengthen the base damage of Rasengan, take away its random, and make Barrage stronger, and make it use a specific chakra.

Same concept with Diversion but higher base defense.

THEN, Shadow Clones would empower these skills by double damage; with a cooldown higher than the duration of its skill. But also grant Rasengan and Barrage an extra random in cost.
However, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.
thicks111 wrote:
Even if this decreases by 15 each times its used, wouldn't this effect be renewable for no cost since 'Shadow Clones' have 1 cooldown?
It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

For Sagai's skill, what is the cost for it and cooldown? It seems like a strong skill, also, per charge means it can deal the 15 for 2 turns stacks or per charge the turns increase? If it means stack, then i would say it COULD be too strong, but i have no idea how WoN is balanced normally anyway. After all, base characters in WoN could just be generally stronger than in N-A.

For your first point, i focused on the more unbalanced aspects, that's why i zoned in on Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Sure, Uzumaki Barrage can be op as well, but those were the two most pressing issues. I disregarded the 4th skill because it's so weak (but yes, it makes sense why you had to make it so weak).

For your second point, i understand his strategy, but sometimes it DOESN'T matter if his downsides are x if his benefits are WAY stronger.

I'm not sure you understand, this Naruto gains TOO MANY CHARGES. Seriously, think about it. THINK how insanely POWERFUL this character can be to fight against UNLESS you have stunners or a really good team that roughly can negate chars like this Naruto. Unless you had an aoe team of some sort, you'd really be upsetting the balance with this character (and that's an annoying thing to do: 'unless you have this specific type of TEAM orientation, you can't neutralize him', and that's not even talking about how his teammates fit in).

"It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be"

The only way to use this character is to continually gain charges, he's too damn strong in some scenarios. No enemy should adapt this much. He's also terrible in other situations. Think about it mate. IF he vs a team of neutralizing chars (like itachi, kakashi s, kimimaro, lee (S), kushina), he's not going to do ANYTHING. That's ALSO bad, because by chance, he went against teams that can completely destroy him. Now, you could have teammates who continually try to use helpful counters on him, but...imo that's a problem. No character in N-A is or should be strong enough (with little drawback) to merit other chars completely protecting him. It's a GOOD thing that there are no chars like that. little drawback because no cost skill gaining so much damn charges, the fact that he doesn't have defense is both good and terrible. I know it doesn't sound i'm making much sense here, but it's all about the CHARGES, gaining 4 with only a 1 COOLDOWN.

Of course there are types of characters that deal high damage, but it shouldn't/doesn't take so much to lower their damage.
He has a skill that deals 20 damage and applies 2 charges. Costs 1 specific and I think had 1 cd but I am not sure.

One that costs a specific, applies 1 charge on all enemies and has a cooldown.

And the skill itself that deals 15 affliction for 2 turns per charge to all enemies, removing them. Costs 2 specifics.

I don't understand how the 4th skill is weak. Naruto can't be damaged by skills that deal 25 or less damage on its second turn if newly used, after using the preparation. For each new skill. That means he can negate 75 damage if he is attacked by 3 skills, regardless of damage type. Since it isn't a damage reduction effect. And since most skills average around 30 damage, he will take very little damage during it while the enemy might think it is worth it to attack him.

I think that the specific factor that makes us disagree is the fact that you think he's very hard to negate. Which is not. Most teams are capable of using 2 offensive skills in a single turn. One costing a specific and a random and one a specific. So he will most likely get focused down first as soon as he preps. But most importantly, besides of the easy damage that can be dealt on him, there's so many things that he can't just deal with. Damage reduction will lower his damage significantly even if he has charges. Destructible defense too. Stuns fuck him because it gives your team more time to damage him. Stuns that also deal damage, which there's plenty of, are even worse for him. Invulnerabilities make him unable to target someone that he might need to kill, and give the enemy team more time to damage him out of charges. And reflects and counters also destroy him. These are about half the effects the game has.

Also there have been characters that have been revolved around in teams in N-A and in high level metas too. Think of any Chouji teams where he would just go invulnerable for 5 turns and he would just be paired up with two healers or a healer and a stunner. Then you'd win because now your Chouji deals 80 damage for one tai and he's invulnerable constantly. I understand you not liking that personally, but these are characters that someone will create and some people will prefer having. It's a matter of taste here.

The question I have for you is. Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If so, for me he is balanced and there's not really any problem you can run into him since anyone has a defense mechanism against it.
  Posted on July 19, 2017 06:15
matthewllerena
Rank: member

Forum Rank:
Genin

Posts: 112
Joined on:
August 29, 2007
#19
Saitama wrote:
thicks111 wrote:
Saitama wrote:
interpretation of the character.My AdviceHowever, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

That's an even greater problem.

Since there's only 1 cooldown, within 2 prep times, even if Naruto uses one of his charges

He can deal 100+ to anyone, killing them for 2 chakra.

And if you go further, it doesn't matter what defense you have in the game.

If you want to avoid having similar skills to the 'carbon copy' in-game, then you might want to rework or change your skills.

My point is, Naruto has the ability to deal a huge amount of damage with very little cost. And a team with this Naruto in it would be solely centered around keeping him alive to make that kind of impact.

Final thing, 1 turn invulnerability skill is not always a bad thing. I'm not implying you said that, but sometimes the mechanic of making a character become invulnerable for 1 turn is useful and necessary for balancing.
This character going invulnerable for 1 turn and having no defense for 4 turns would be a much worse defensive option than what he already has.

Because this character's damage is shut down easily if you just attack him. Any team of characters is capable of using at least 2 offensive skills per turn on a single character or some form of defense or crowd control. He would have no chance to maintain the high amount of stacks he could get to in an ideal situation. Without support, he can quite ineffective.

However, I don't have to rework the character fully because you can't imagine any changes while still maintaining the concept without this character becoming a carbon copy of the in-game one. There are plenty of changes you can do to a character without going closer to the in-game version.
matthewllerena wrote:
Saitama wrote:
There's two things that bother me with your overall assessment.

One: There's only two skills in mind being considered here for you. Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Rasengan will either deal too little damage or too much damage and as a result, the whole character is terrible. But you don't seem to give any consideration to the other two skills whatsoever. Uzumaki Barrage has the potential to deal a bare minimum total of 30 damage at each use. How? If you use it when you have either one charge or no charges, you will deal 5/10 damage on the first turn. Then you use Shadow Clones and set it up in the skill queue in such a way that it activates before Uzumaki Barrage so the improvements are applied to the skill. (Since the skill is action) That will improve it to 25 damage. So he will deal 5+25 or 10+25. If the charges are higher, he will end up dealing even more. The same situation is there with the Diversion skill where he can reduce similar amounts of damage as he would deal damage with Uzumaki Barrage, then getting a free preparation after he blocked off most of the damage he would take for one turn. And then he would mostly have some safe stacks of preparations that way. Coupled with a counter or some other form of defense from another one of his teammates, and he could be goldenly set up through that skill. I know you said that the Barrage is still strong, but you didn't exactly explain how it can be reliable and I am making sure you understand that, and you've pretty much discarded the fourth skill.

Two: Getting as many charges as you can into the character is the overall goal of the character. Him getting as many as possible for him to deal as much damage as possible is the rewarding part of the character. In other words, you want to use him in a way that you deal as much damage and then execute your targets with Rasengan, once you have enough. The reason he has charges removed so easily is that there is some way that he might fail in dealing an overly reliable amount of damage. As an example, I will use a character from WoN named Saigai. The way he does an overwhelming amount of damage is by setting up charges on enemies that do nothing. Then, upon using his key skill, he deals 15 affliction damage for 2 turns per charge. Your capability to set up the charges on the enemy characters is what makes you use that character effectively, and your capability to set up the charges on Naruto is what determines whether or not you are using him effectively. In Naruto's situation, the only real question is whether or not he is capable of setting up his damage to be rewarding at some point, not whether or not it is situationally high or situationally low. It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be. There are types of characters that you can end up dealing very little or very high damage based on how you use them, and Naruto is one of those characters. Now I need to know whether you have an issue with the overall design of Naruto specifically, or designs such as Saigai's.

Based on what you say, I could do some changes to him once I fully grasp your interpretation of the character.My AdviceHowever, definitely not these. All these changes would make him do, is turn him into a carbon copy of the in-game Naruto, that doesn't have an invulnerability to be a cool kid, as well as remove his essential damage reduction that makes him a reliable character.It isn't renewable. The charges are stackable. That means, unless attacked, you can stack them infinitely provided you take enough turns. Then you could use Rasengan to deal over 100 damage, and even the Barrage can deal over 100 damage per turn if you had 20+ charges, which would probably never happen in an actual game. Note that one is lost upon taking damage from a newly used skill.

For Sagai's skill, what is the cost for it and cooldown? It seems like a strong skill, also, per charge means it can deal the 15 for 2 turns stacks or per charge the turns increase? If it means stack, then i would say it COULD be too strong, but i have no idea how WoN is balanced normally anyway. After all, base characters in WoN could just be generally stronger than in N-A.

For your first point, i focused on the more unbalanced aspects, that's why i zoned in on Shadow Clones and Rasengan. Sure, Uzumaki Barrage can be op as well, but those were the two most pressing issues. I disregarded the 4th skill because it's so weak (but yes, it makes sense why you had to make it so weak).

For your second point, i understand his strategy, but sometimes it DOESN'T matter if his downsides are x if his benefits are WAY stronger.

I'm not sure you understand, this Naruto gains TOO MANY CHARGES. Seriously, think about it. THINK how insanely POWERFUL this character can be to fight against UNLESS you have stunners or a really good team that roughly can negate chars like this Naruto. Unless you had an aoe team of some sort, you'd really be upsetting the balance with this character (and that's an annoying thing to do: 'unless you have this specific type of TEAM orientation, you can't neutralize him', and that's not even talking about how his teammates fit in).

"It is very dependent on how you use Naruto and how the enemy adapts around him and that is how I planned him to be"

The only way to use this character is to continually gain charges, he's too damn strong in some scenarios. No enemy should adapt this much. He's also terrible in other situations. Think about it mate. IF he vs a team of neutralizing chars (like itachi, kakashi s, kimimaro, lee (S), kushina), he's not going to do ANYTHING. That's ALSO bad, because by chance, he went against teams that can completely destroy him. Now, you could have teammates who continually try to use helpful counters on him, but...imo that's a problem. No character in N-A is or should be strong enough (with little drawback) to merit other chars completely protecting him. It's a GOOD thing that there are no chars like that. little drawback because no cost skill gaining so much damn charges, the fact that he doesn't have defense is both good and terrible. I know it doesn't sound i'm making much sense here, but it's all about the CHARGES, gaining 4 with only a 1 COOLDOWN.

Of course there are types of characters that deal high damage, but it shouldn't/doesn't take so much to lower their damage.
He has a skill that deals 20 damage and applies 2 charges. Costs 1 specific and I think had 1 cd but I am not sure.

One that costs a specific, applies 1 charge on all enemies and has a cooldown.

And the skill itself that deals 15 affliction for 2 turns per charge to all enemies, removing them. Costs 2 specifics.

I don't understand how the 4th skill is weak. Naruto can't be damaged by skills that deal 25 or less damage on its second turn if newly used, after using the preparation. For each new skill. That means he can negate 75 damage if he is attacked by 3 skills, regardless of damage type. Since it isn't a damage reduction effect. And since most skills average around 30 damage, he will take very little damage during it while the enemy might think it is worth it to attack him.

I think that the specific factor that makes us disagree is the fact that you think he's very hard to negate. Which is not. Most teams are capable of using 2 offensive skills in a single turn. One costing a specific and a random and one a specific. So he will most likely get focused down first as soon as he preps. But most importantly, besides of the easy damage that can be dealt on him, there's so many things that he can't just deal with. Damage reduction will lower his damage significantly even if he has charges. Destructible defense too. Stuns fuck him because it gives your team more time to damage him. Stuns that also deal damage, which there's plenty of, are even worse for him. Invulnerabilities make him unable to target someone that he might need to kill, and give the enemy team more time to damage him out of charges. And reflects and counters also destroy him. These are about half the effects the game has.

Also there have been characters that have been revolved around in teams in N-A and in high level metas too. Think of any Chouji teams where he would just go invulnerable for 5 turns and he would just be paired up with two healers or a healer and a stunner. Then you'd win because now your Chouji deals 80 damage for one tai and he's invulnerable constantly. I understand you not liking that personally, but these are characters that someone will create and some people will prefer having. It's a matter of taste here.

The question I have for you is. Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If so, for me he is balanced and there's not really any problem you can run into him since anyone has a defense mechanism against it.


Oh, so he's a character that deals more and more damage as time progresses, if he targets well. That's fine, he's definitely an unignorable character, but that's fine.

The 4th skill is weak because it takes off one charge to reduce incoming damage, aka, 5x2=10. So he only reduces incoming damage by 10. Its 2 cooldown prevents it from stacking at all, so i don't know where you got your numbers, unless you worded your skill wrong.

Look, the way he regenerates his charges is too strong. That's the problem. EVEN if he gets fucked by a good combo, if he gets back up and some help from teammates or something, there's a chance he'll dish out insane damage, let me explain myself more...
Now, there are some characters that are unignorable; you can't ignore them and expect to get off with low damage or whatever else, so you target them first. When there's a team of those characters, you have to do your best to pick the most annoying of the bunch. I would almost always target this Naruto to kill off first because he recharges VERY quickly. NOW, if i had a really good team (let's say...Itachi, shukaku, and kisame), i would do my best to neutralize that naruto quickly. I've faced teams like Itachi, Kakashi s, and lee s using the team i mentioned, and i've always targeted Lee (S) because i cannot afford to 1v1 him later in the game. Now, i always try to combo using shukaku's constricting sand prison and kisame or itachi's stun (or kisame's steal-chakra skill). Let's say i do that on Naruto. In a game, 2 things could happen: either i can successfully stun him for a long period of time and kill him, or i don't. When i don't i either couldn't at all or couldn't continue it for a long time.
Now... the reason your Naruto is shit is because if i let him go for just ONE turn with his health semi-high, i'm in big trouble (especially if he went first at the beginning of the game and could do his charge skill). If i let him go while his health is very very low (this means he will basically have no charges) he'd be in very big trouble. The benefits are too high in some scenarios, and too weak in others.

Actually, that chouji example IS good, but chouji has a good downside, he takes 20 affliction. He works best with healers but the downside is...they're healers. Chouji can get to high amounts of damage, but he doesn't do that in BURSTS, he does that over time, making it easier to put a stop to it, even with healers. AGAIN, it's how fast he gets those charges. It's not a matter of taste.

Guy, if your character can be destroyed by almost half of the effects, you have to think about that character. When i said, "sometimes it DOESN'T matter if his downsides are x if his benefits are WAY stronger. " , i was specifically referring to situations where Naruto has opportunities to deal large amounts of damage; even if you had a 'good' strategy with your teammates around Naruto, that's too strong.

Also, If you have Discord we should talk about this more on there, i feel like you're not understanding my points.
  Posted on July 19, 2017 08:50
-Sofia
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#20
Why are the first skill and last skill unique?
A k a t s u k i II

  Posted on July 19, 2017 11:11
SwatCaddy
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#21
lmao people still talk about chars skills in 2017..
  Posted on July 19, 2017 11:50
Itachis-
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#22
SwatCaddy wrote:
lmao people still talk about chars skills in 2017..
sadly
  Posted on July 19, 2017 12:09
Saitama
Rank: member

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Genin

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#23
-Sofia wrote:
Why are the first skill and last skill unique?
Copying any skill other than Uzumaki Barrage would be dysfunctional or completely unbalanced. Naruto is specifically designed around to work around Shadow Clones' improvement, and that improvement skill on someone like lets say, Young Kakashi, would be completely broken. The other 2 skills just require it, so it would be pointless to copy them.
matthewllerena wrote:
Also, If you have Discord we should talk about this more on there, i feel like you're not understanding my points.
I understand your points but I agree with very little of what you say.
matthewllerena wrote:
Oh, so he's a character that deals more and more damage as time progresses, if he targets well. That's fine, he's definitely an unignorable character, but that's fine.
You have given me the fact that Chouji example is good, but somehow you are trying to invalidate it. Yes, Chouji doesn't gain it in bursts, but he has a 5 turn invulnerability window. After that 5 turn invulnerability he can come up with 2 of the 3 uses he has of that skill, and teams focused around him will keep him at full health. Now all you have to do is kill a character and you will most likely be able to get another improvement in. And then you can do whatever you want with Chouji. Chouji doesn't have any vulnerability frames and he has ensured a decent amount of damage, regardless of the 20 affliction drawback that would get healed off. He is guaranteed to deal 60 damage, lose 40 health, and be invulnerable for 5 turns in a row, if he needs be. And in the turn he isn't invulnerable he already has the option to just deal 60 damage for one specific.

The reason Naruto does it in bursts because he doesn't have that level of security. He is highly vulnerable to everything while Chouji has only one turn of vulnerability if you're playing him right. He is guaranteed to end up dealing a lot of damage, and he's very likely to be a game changer. Naruto isn't. Naruto can be fucked over by any team that can use two damaging skills in a single turn. So, every single team in N-A can destroy him. He is a high priority target, yes, but any team can deal with him. Any team can minimize his damage. The chance that he can dish out insane damage IS WHAT I NEED FOR THE CHARACTER TO BE EFFECTIVE. The downsides are that he can be shut down too much and he can leave out the match without dealing too much damage, but this drawback is somewhat leveled by his low energy consumption. You can use the skills of your more costly allies. Then there's him being able to succeed in dealing a lot damage. That's the punishment you're gonna get when you don't manage him properly, even though you will be capable at any point to shut him down. In other words, I can't envision a scenario where Naruto will end up dealing too much damage without it being the player's own fault for not dealing well with him. In Chouji's case I can, since you might end up not having enough energy before he becomes really strong, or even enough characters alive.

Chouji being invulnerable for 5 turns and being capable to deal 60 damage for a specific while this Naruto has no invulnerability frames and he may deal the same amount of damage for one specific and a random, unless he is not focused down. Naruto can lose 3 charges a turn. Chouji can't lose his improvements. Naruto is a risky character to use because he can lose his improvements really fast. The only part that I can think that could make him overly advantageous is first skill having no costs, which I could change to costing one random.

I'm also unsure whether or not you understand how action skills work so I'll explain it on the topic. It could be that you just skipped the last sentence of the fourth skill so I'd advice rereading the skill.



Here you have the skills you used listen along the chakra. You can reorder them to use them in any order you want. In the case of action skills, they will still appear there even after the first turn they are used, because the game treats the skill as if it keeps activating again every turn. That's how action skills are coded. So, when you use Shadow Clones, you can set it as the first skill in the queue, then put Uzumaki Barrage or the Clone Diversion skill, after, and then improve them again that way, because you will add new charges. So you will reduce damage based on the new stacks you gain, since the damage reducing effect is improved in the same way as damage would be, as the skill says. So if you had one shadow clone left, and were reducing 10 damage on the first turn, after using Shadow Clones you will reduce all damage by 25.

His benefits aren't way stronger than his downsides, because there are characters such as Chouji in the game, who are capable of going invulnerable for a stupid amount of turns in a row, and end up getting a lot of damage to deal, while Naruto has close to no defense. Chouji can literally repeat cycles of 5 turns of invulnerability with only once turn of vulinerability as much as he wants. While Naruto is stoppable even by characters who don't even have a form of defense. Again, I can't imagine a single scenario where he can end up with a lot of charges where it is not the player's fault for leaving him be on his own. He is a high priority target because that's how you control his damage.

You still haven't answered my question so I will ask again. I will add a how to enforce a more specific response.

Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If he can't be shut down, then how is that?
  Posted on July 19, 2017 22:13
-Sofia
Rank: member

Forum Rank:
Chuunin

Posts: 386
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#24
Saitama wrote:
-Sofia wrote:
Why are the first skill and last skill unique?
Copying any skill other than Uzumaki Barrage would be dysfunctional or completely unbalanced. Naruto is specifically designed around to work around Shadow Clones' improvement, and that improvement skill on someone like lets say, Young Kakashi, would be completely broken. The other 2 skills just require it, so it would be pointless to copy them.
matthewllerena wrote:
Also, If you have Discord we should talk about this more on there, i feel like you're not understanding my points.
I understand your points but I agree with very little of what you say.
matthewllerena wrote:
Oh, so he's a character that deals more and more damage as time progresses, if he targets well. That's fine, he's definitely an unignorable character, but that's fine.
You have given me the fact that Chouji example is good, but somehow you are trying to invalidate it. Yes, Chouji doesn't gain it in bursts, but he has a 5 turn invulnerability window. After that 5 turn invulnerability he can come up with 2 of the 3 uses he has of that skill, and teams focused around him will keep him at full health. Now all you have to do is kill a character and you will most likely be able to get another improvement in. And then you can do whatever you want with Chouji. Chouji doesn't have any vulnerability frames and he has ensured a decent amount of damage, regardless of the 20 affliction drawback that would get healed off. He is guaranteed to deal 60 damage, lose 40 health, and be invulnerable for 5 turns in a row, if he needs be. And in the turn he isn't invulnerable he already has the option to just deal 60 damage for one specific.

The reason Naruto does it in bursts because he doesn't have that level of security. He is highly vulnerable to everything while Chouji has only one turn of vulnerability if you're playing him right. He is guaranteed to end up dealing a lot of damage, and he's very likely to be a game changer. Naruto isn't. Naruto can be fucked over by any team that can use two damaging skills in a single turn. So, every single team in N-A can destroy him. He is a high priority target, yes, but any team can deal with him. Any team can minimize his damage. The chance that he can dish out insane damage IS WHAT I NEED FOR THE CHARACTER TO BE EFFECTIVE. The downsides are that he can be shut down too much and he can leave out the match without dealing too much damage, but this drawback is somewhat leveled by his low energy consumption. You can use the skills of your more costly allies. Then there's him being able to succeed in dealing a lot damage. That's the punishment you're gonna get when you don't manage him properly, even though you will be capable at any point to shut him down. In other words, I can't envision a scenario where Naruto will end up dealing too much damage without it being the player's own fault for not dealing well with him. In Chouji's case I can, since you might end up not having enough energy before he becomes really strong, or even enough characters alive.

Chouji being invulnerable for 5 turns and being capable to deal 60 damage for a specific while this Naruto has no invulnerability frames and he may deal the same amount of damage for one specific and a random, unless he is not focused down. Naruto can lose 3 charges a turn. Chouji can't lose his improvements. Naruto is a risky character to use because he can lose his improvements really fast. The only part that I can think that could make him overly advantageous is first skill having no costs, which I could change to costing one random.

I'm also unsure whether or not you understand how action skills work so I'll explain it on the topic. It could be that you just skipped the last sentence of the fourth skill so I'd advice rereading the skill.



Here you have the skills you used listen along the chakra. You can reorder them to use them in any order you want. In the case of action skills, they will still appear there even after the first turn they are used, because the game treats the skill as if it keeps activating again every turn. That's how action skills are coded. So, when you use Shadow Clones, you can set it as the first skill in the queue, then put Uzumaki Barrage or the Clone Diversion skill, after, and then improve them again that way, because you will add new charges. So you will reduce damage based on the new stacks you gain, since the damage reducing effect is improved in the same way as damage would be, as the skill says. So if you had one shadow clone left, and were reducing 10 damage on the first turn, after using Shadow Clones you will reduce all damage by 25.

His benefits aren't way stronger than his downsides, because there are characters such as Chouji in the game, who are capable of going invulnerable for a stupid amount of turns in a row, and end up getting a lot of damage to deal, while Naruto has close to no defense. Chouji can literally repeat cycles of 5 turns of invulnerability with only once turn of vulinerability as much as he wants. While Naruto is stoppable even by characters who don't even have a form of defense. Again, I can't imagine a single scenario where he can end up with a lot of charges where it is not the player's fault for leaving him be on his own. He is a high priority target because that's how you control his damage.

You still haven't answered my question so I will ask again. I will add a how to enforce a more specific response.

Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If he can't be shut down, then how is that?

That's a decent explanation
I'm glad you took your time writing it ^^
Do you mind if I ask you to do a certain character?
A k a t s u k i II

  Posted on July 20, 2017 06:00
Saitama
Rank: member

Forum Rank:
Genin

Posts: 51
Joined on:
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#25
-Sofia wrote:
Saitama wrote:
-Sofia wrote:
Why are the first skill and last skill unique?
Copying any skill other than Uzumaki Barrage would be dysfunctional or completely unbalanced. Naruto is specifically designed around to work around Shadow Clones' improvement, and that improvement skill on someone like lets say, Young Kakashi, would be completely broken. The other 2 skills just require it, so it would be pointless to copy them.
matthewllerena wrote:
Also, If you have Discord we should talk about this more on there, i feel like you're not understanding my points.
I understand your points but I agree with very little of what you say.
matthewllerena wrote:
Oh, so he's a character that deals more and more damage as time progresses, if he targets well. That's fine, he's definitely an unignorable character, but that's fine.
You have given me the fact that Chouji example is good, but somehow you are trying to invalidate it. Yes, Chouji doesn't gain it in bursts, but he has a 5 turn invulnerability window. After that 5 turn invulnerability he can come up with 2 of the 3 uses he has of that skill, and teams focused around him will keep him at full health. Now all you have to do is kill a character and you will most likely be able to get another improvement in. And then you can do whatever you want with Chouji. Chouji doesn't have any vulnerability frames and he has ensured a decent amount of damage, regardless of the 20 affliction drawback that would get healed off. He is guaranteed to deal 60 damage, lose 40 health, and be invulnerable for 5 turns in a row, if he needs be. And in the turn he isn't invulnerable he already has the option to just deal 60 damage for one specific.

The reason Naruto does it in bursts because he doesn't have that level of security. He is highly vulnerable to everything while Chouji has only one turn of vulnerability if you're playing him right. He is guaranteed to end up dealing a lot of damage, and he's very likely to be a game changer. Naruto isn't. Naruto can be fucked over by any team that can use two damaging skills in a single turn. So, every single team in N-A can destroy him. He is a high priority target, yes, but any team can deal with him. Any team can minimize his damage. The chance that he can dish out insane damage IS WHAT I NEED FOR THE CHARACTER TO BE EFFECTIVE. The downsides are that he can be shut down too much and he can leave out the match without dealing too much damage, but this drawback is somewhat leveled by his low energy consumption. You can use the skills of your more costly allies. Then there's him being able to succeed in dealing a lot damage. That's the punishment you're gonna get when you don't manage him properly, even though you will be capable at any point to shut him down. In other words, I can't envision a scenario where Naruto will end up dealing too much damage without it being the player's own fault for not dealing well with him. In Chouji's case I can, since you might end up not having enough energy before he becomes really strong, or even enough characters alive.

Chouji being invulnerable for 5 turns and being capable to deal 60 damage for a specific while this Naruto has no invulnerability frames and he may deal the same amount of damage for one specific and a random, unless he is not focused down. Naruto can lose 3 charges a turn. Chouji can't lose his improvements. Naruto is a risky character to use because he can lose his improvements really fast. The only part that I can think that could make him overly advantageous is first skill having no costs, which I could change to costing one random.

I'm also unsure whether or not you understand how action skills work so I'll explain it on the topic. It could be that you just skipped the last sentence of the fourth skill so I'd advice rereading the skill.



Here you have the skills you used listen along the chakra. You can reorder them to use them in any order you want. In the case of action skills, they will still appear there even after the first turn they are used, because the game treats the skill as if it keeps activating again every turn. That's how action skills are coded. So, when you use Shadow Clones, you can set it as the first skill in the queue, then put Uzumaki Barrage or the Clone Diversion skill, after, and then improve them again that way, because you will add new charges. So you will reduce damage based on the new stacks you gain, since the damage reducing effect is improved in the same way as damage would be, as the skill says. So if you had one shadow clone left, and were reducing 10 damage on the first turn, after using Shadow Clones you will reduce all damage by 25.

His benefits aren't way stronger than his downsides, because there are characters such as Chouji in the game, who are capable of going invulnerable for a stupid amount of turns in a row, and end up getting a lot of damage to deal, while Naruto has close to no defense. Chouji can literally repeat cycles of 5 turns of invulnerability with only once turn of vulinerability as much as he wants. While Naruto is stoppable even by characters who don't even have a form of defense. Again, I can't imagine a single scenario where he can end up with a lot of charges where it is not the player's fault for leaving him be on his own. He is a high priority target because that's how you control his damage.

You still haven't answered my question so I will ask again. I will add a how to enforce a more specific response.

Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If he can't be shut down, then how is that?

That's a decent explanation
I'm glad you took your time writing it ^^
Do you mind if I ask you to do a certain character?
I don't mind being asked but I probably won't do one because of a request.
  Posted on July 21, 2017 22:14
-Sofia
Rank: member

Forum Rank:
Chuunin

Posts: 386
Joined on:
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#26
Saitama wrote:
-Sofia wrote:
Saitama wrote:
Copying any skill other than Uzumaki Barrage would be dysfunctional or completely unbalanced. Naruto is specifically designed around to work around Shadow Clones' improvement, and that improvement skill on someone like lets say, Young Kakashi, would be completely broken. The other 2 skills just require it, so it would be pointless to copy them.

I understand your points but I agree with very little of what you say.
You have given me the fact that Chouji example is good, but somehow you are trying to invalidate it. Yes, Chouji doesn't gain it in bursts, but he has a 5 turn invulnerability window. After that 5 turn invulnerability he can come up with 2 of the 3 uses he has of that skill, and teams focused around him will keep him at full health. Now all you have to do is kill a character and you will most likely be able to get another improvement in. And then you can do whatever you want with Chouji. Chouji doesn't have any vulnerability frames and he has ensured a decent amount of damage, regardless of the 20 affliction drawback that would get healed off. He is guaranteed to deal 60 damage, lose 40 health, and be invulnerable for 5 turns in a row, if he needs be. And in the turn he isn't invulnerable he already has the option to just deal 60 damage for one specific.

The reason Naruto does it in bursts because he doesn't have that level of security. He is highly vulnerable to everything while Chouji has only one turn of vulnerability if you're playing him right. He is guaranteed to end up dealing a lot of damage, and he's very likely to be a game changer. Naruto isn't. Naruto can be fucked over by any team that can use two damaging skills in a single turn. So, every single team in N-A can destroy him. He is a high priority target, yes, but any team can deal with him. Any team can minimize his damage. The chance that he can dish out insane damage IS WHAT I NEED FOR THE CHARACTER TO BE EFFECTIVE. The downsides are that he can be shut down too much and he can leave out the match without dealing too much damage, but this drawback is somewhat leveled by his low energy consumption. You can use the skills of your more costly allies. Then there's him being able to succeed in dealing a lot damage. That's the punishment you're gonna get when you don't manage him properly, even though you will be capable at any point to shut him down. In other words, I can't envision a scenario where Naruto will end up dealing too much damage without it being the player's own fault for not dealing well with him. In Chouji's case I can, since you might end up not having enough energy before he becomes really strong, or even enough characters alive.

Chouji being invulnerable for 5 turns and being capable to deal 60 damage for a specific while this Naruto has no invulnerability frames and he may deal the same amount of damage for one specific and a random, unless he is not focused down. Naruto can lose 3 charges a turn. Chouji can't lose his improvements. Naruto is a risky character to use because he can lose his improvements really fast. The only part that I can think that could make him overly advantageous is first skill having no costs, which I could change to costing one random.

I'm also unsure whether or not you understand how action skills work so I'll explain it on the topic. It could be that you just skipped the last sentence of the fourth skill so I'd advice rereading the skill.



Here you have the skills you used listen along the chakra. You can reorder them to use them in any order you want. In the case of action skills, they will still appear there even after the first turn they are used, because the game treats the skill as if it keeps activating again every turn. That's how action skills are coded. So, when you use Shadow Clones, you can set it as the first skill in the queue, then put Uzumaki Barrage or the Clone Diversion skill, after, and then improve them again that way, because you will add new charges. So you will reduce damage based on the new stacks you gain, since the damage reducing effect is improved in the same way as damage would be, as the skill says. So if you had one shadow clone left, and were reducing 10 damage on the first turn, after using Shadow Clones you will reduce all damage by 25.

His benefits aren't way stronger than his downsides, because there are characters such as Chouji in the game, who are capable of going invulnerable for a stupid amount of turns in a row, and end up getting a lot of damage to deal, while Naruto has close to no defense. Chouji can literally repeat cycles of 5 turns of invulnerability with only once turn of vulinerability as much as he wants. While Naruto is stoppable even by characters who don't even have a form of defense. Again, I can't imagine a single scenario where he can end up with a lot of charges where it is not the player's fault for leaving him be on his own. He is a high priority target because that's how you control his damage.

You still haven't answered my question so I will ask again. I will add a how to enforce a more specific response.

Can this character not really be shut down by most teams if they focus him? If he can't be shut down, then how is that?

That's a decent explanation
I'm glad you took your time writing it ^^
Do you mind if I ask you to do a certain character?
I don't mind being asked but I probably won't do one because of a request.

oh.. I understand
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